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[teapot]

http://www.olpcnews.com/software/windows/windows_xp_on_the_xo_video.html

Unfortunately this is what people want.  You turn it on, it runs, you go where you're used to going and things work the way you expect them to.

For typical laptop users my Ubuntu configuration does exactly the same -- likely much faster given the same conditions (memory, file sizes, flash card speed). For developers, especially developers who can contribute something worthwhile -- not really. For classroom -- Windows remains hopelessly inferior even to what little of Sugar is in use now.

Nick could sell a million of these tomorrow.

Only if Microsoft will give this Windows version away for consumer uses. And only if those million laptops will all sell in a single day, before users will realize that most of Windows applications they wanted to use, don't work on those hardware specs. Or alternatively if hardware specs will significantly go up without rising the price. In other words, not any different from Asus Eee, that did not get any significant presence on the market in Linux-based version, and still doesn't with Windows.

Your typical user gets what they want.  Developers that like windows can use that platform, and hackers can hack to their heart's content.

I am a developer, and I don't like Windows at all.

[fyoder]

To return to my original question of whether or not it matters what OS Sugar runs on, it would seem to be moot since there's a lot on XP on the XO, but nothing about Sugar on XP on the XO.  Are they going to ship these things without any educational software?  I suppose the kids could write their school essays up in Notepad...

I've thought Wayan was being a bit of a drama queen with his 'this is the end of OLPC', but it is looking like the end of OLPC as an organization that has anything to do with actual education.  That could wind up being pushed entirely onto individual teachers who will also have to become Windows sysadmins.  With Sugar the idea was everybody boots, the mesh network magically appears, loads of educational activities are immediately available for sharing.  With Windows, I dunno.  I hope they don't make teachers responsible for keeping track of software licenses as well.  It would be sad to see a teacher dragged away in handcuffs by the BSA.

[teapot]

They can ship with some "let's pretend it's educational" software, Microsoft Works, some meaningless multiple-choice tests (that are the cancer of education) mismatched with local curriculum, and one MSDN subscription per country, so it won't look like they sre selling Office at dumping prices.

[AuntiMame]

They can ship with some "let's pretend it's educational" software

In an honest, and hopefully non-flame inducing way, I've started a thread about "educational software"

http://olpcnews.com/forum/index.php?topic=2755.msg22187

It seems to me that we haven't defined what "educational software" is. And without that how can we compare?

Aunti

[sracer]

I've thought Wayan was being a bit of a drama queen with his 'this is the end of OLPC', but it is looking like the end of OLPC as an organization that has anything to do with actual education.

There are 3 things that are killing the OLPC project.... zealotry, bigotry, and ego.

These three kernels have been wrapped in a sugar coating of pie-in-the-sky feel-goodisms.

It's part of the human condition.  There are a variety of reasons why people bought into the OLPC vision.  Some joined in because of bigotry... Anti-Microsoft.   Others because of zealotry... they saw it as an opportunity to advance Linux and open source as viable alternatives.   And some because of ego... it is different, and I'm involved, therefore it is superior.

Amongst all of that, there are a few who bought into the simple premise of "cheap laptops for under-privileged kids to help them learn".  Those people don't care what OS is running or what software is running as long as it meets that goal.

[teapot]

If "cheap laptop for poor people" was indeed the goal of the project, the only people who would join would be oness who donate their own old computers to the poor, because that accomplishes the same goals with two or three orders of magnitude less effort.

People only participated in the project because stated goal was to produce a specific kind of a computer -- using Free/Open Source software to provide tools and environment conducive to education. If a random poor person asked me to buy  him a laptop in a store, I would tell him to go away, and so would do everyone who ever touched this project. Even you.

[Tortuga]

This is Negroponte's current position, not sure how this squares with the original Mission statement as I haven't located it yet.:

2008/5/16 Nicholas Negroponte <nn at media.mit.edu>: (word document attached)

Mission statement of OLPC

"To eliminate poverty and create world peace by providing education to the poorest and most remote children on the planet by making them more active in their own learning, through collaborative and creative activities, connected to the Internet, with their own laptop, as a human right and cost free to them."

[sracer]

If "cheap laptop for poor people" was indeed the goal of the project, the only people who would join would be oness who donate their own old computers to the poor, because that accomplishes the same goals with two or three orders of magnitude less effort.

You conveniently took a fragment of what I actually said to make your own point.  Be intellectually honest enough to address what I actually said, not just a piece out of context to suite your purposes.  I specifically said, "cheap laptops for under-privileged kids to help them learn".  It's about education through the use of laptops... and NOT just a "cheap laptop" program.

People only participated in the project because stated goal was to produce a specific kind of a computer -- using Free/Open Source software to provide tools and environment conducive to education. If a random poor person asked me to buy  him a laptop in a store, I would tell him to go away, and so would do everyone who ever touched this project. Even you.

You aren't intelligent enough to speak for me... so don't. 

It is quite arrogant to presume to know that "people only particpated in the project...".   Amazing that you know that everyone had the exact same reason for participating... and that reason just happens to be the same as your reason.

 

[teapot]

You conveniently took a fragment of what I actually said to make your own point.  Be intellectually honest enough to address what I actually said, not just a piece out of context to suite your purposes.  I specifically said, "cheap laptops for under-privileged kids to help them learn".  It's about education through the use of laptops... and NOT just a "cheap laptop" program.

I took it out because it's meaningless fluff. Laptops, as they are used in schools now in, say, US, do not enhance learning, they are more of a status symbol, communication or entertainment device. Classes on using Microsoft Office are about as useful as classes on how to use tokens and tickets in a subway, or classes on proper ways of slicing bread -- while that knowledge is obviously useful, a sane human should not need a school to teach it to him.

Least of all this is useful for people in third world countries unless you expect them to immigrate into US and take a job of a secretary.

You aren't intelligent enough to speak for me... so don't. 

Regardless of your evaluation of my intelligence, I am sure, you did not donate your previous computer.

It is quite arrogant to presume to know that "people only particpated in the project...".   Amazing that you know that everyone had the exact same reason for participating... and that reason just happens to be the same as your reason.

I challenge you to find a person outside of Microsoft and current OLPC management who donated or contributed anything to the project expecting that those laptops will be used to teach how to write beautiful reports using MS Comic Sans font, or similar idiocy that goes on in the current "computer skills" curriculum.

Alteratively find a person who did that, expecting that the laptops will be donated in configuration desirable for business and consumer use, to encourage kids and school officials to sell or divert them to non-educational use.

Those are the only possible outcomes of a program where laptops with preloaded Windows are introduced into a school. Even a dumbass like myself knows that.

[G-Man]

I agree with sracer on this one:

"There are 3 things that are killing the OLPC project.... zealotry, bigotry, and ego."

The goal is to drive down costs associated with production, distribution and support for the OLPC as a learning platform for poor kids. By doing this, we can get more XOs in to the hands of needy children all over the world.

While many may argue that we're selling our souls to the devil by allowing XP on the XO, I'm not ready to call the Exorcist! If Microsoft can deliver more efficiently, so be it!

Letting this noble mission devolve into a religious war is, at best, immature, at worst, totally counterproductive and self-defeating.

In the words of a great American, "Can't we all just get along?"

[G-Man]

Teapot,

Gotta disagree with you on this one:

The last thing such a project needs is broken and unmaintainable software developed in a "perma-debugging" mode that is so popular among the current batch of Microsoft-bound "enterprise developers

Sorry, but Microsoft XP has been field-tested for years, on millions of laptops all over the world. It is a very stable, supported application. Again accept my apologies, but a lot of good stuff runs on it!

I don't mean to insult you in any way, but you've got a real religiosity thing going on!

G-Man

[teapot]

Teapot,

Gotta disagree with you on this one:

The last thing such a project needs is broken and unmaintainable software developed in a "perma-debugging" mode that is so popular among the current batch of Microsoft-bound "enterprise developers

Sorry, but Microsoft XP has been field-tested for years, on millions of laptops all over the world. It is a very stable, supported application.

I am not even talking about XP itself -- it's a pretty bad system, but it's written by the "best of the worst" and has enormous amount of time sunk in its development, so Microsoft software still stands above the rest of the "Windows ecosystem". My comments refer to developers who are accustomed to Microsoft tools and use development methods those tools encourage.

[CatMoran]

You conveniently took a fragment of what I actually said to make your own point.  Be intellectually honest enough to address what I actually said, not just a piece out of context to suite your purposes.  I specifically said, "cheap laptops for under-privileged kids to help them learn".  It's about education through the use of laptops... and NOT just a "cheap laptop" program.

I took it out because it's meaningless fluff. Laptops, as they are used in schools now in, say, US, do not enhance learning, they are more of a status symbol, communication or entertainment device.

It's not a useful dialog if you argue with what you decide to pretend people said, instead of what they actually said.

And even if the XOs are 'only' a communication device, that's a pretty valuable asset to the education of under-privileged kids. Particularly under-privileged kids who only have regular access to one or two books, if that.

[teapot]

You conveniently took a fragment of what I actually said to make your own point.  Be intellectually honest enough to address what I actually said, not just a piece out of context to suite your purposes.  I specifically said, "cheap laptops for under-privileged kids to help them learn".  It's about education through the use of laptops... and NOT just a "cheap laptop" program.

I took it out because it's meaningless fluff. Laptops, as they are used in schools now in, say, US, do not enhance learning, they are more of a status symbol, communication or entertainment device.

It's not a useful dialog if you argue with what you decide to pretend people said, instead of what they actually said.

I have addressed the point -- I do not see the supposed goal of "helping kids learn" at all being served by giving them cheap laptops with Windows. Everyone I have heard here except pro-Microsoft camp has the same position -- even giving laptops with non-Microsoft software (OSX, Linux, whatever else) without educational software and infrastructure to build and improve more educational software, would not be consistent with the originally stated goals that people actually supported.

And even if the XOs are 'only' a communication device, that's a pretty valuable asset to the education of under-privileged kids.

A phone and talking in person usually serve the same goal much better -- they keep reminding kids that they are dealing with real people, something that is way too often forgotten when the main form of communication is online conversation.

Particularly under-privileged kids who only have regular access to one or two books, if that.

Hundreds of books that can be printed at the cost of a laptop. They are not buying books in US, so comparing laptop production costs with exorbitant US book prices is extremely misleading.